Scott's comments are pretty much "spot on the money." But with respect, I would point out a couple of potential slight differences here, mainly for clarification:
1) Bill's boat is the last hull mold designed by OMC, and the ONLY design where they added 4-inches of center keel depth. I've never measured how much difference that makes at that transom - cavitation plate interface. But this possibly could make using the short leg on this particular OMC hull unacceptable? Just a caution and a potential reason for Bill to stay with the somewhat harder to find long-leg.
2) A comment on post-77 (non-electric) (78-86) stringers. OMC (moved away from the electric shift stringer which had and has a very good service record (provided idle RPM are within spec) because the been counters got involved and essentially wanted to share lower unit designs with the E-J outboards. These are all short-legs. They do share a lot in common, and can be adapted but I'd be careful what you long for. But it is true this is a possibility. I've actually heard of a locally available Buick V6 that has a 400/800-series stringer on it, but I've never actually seen it, so Scott's right -- it has been done before.
It is true that the electric shift lower gear case will "only" be good for speeds up to around 60 mph before it suffers from hydrodynamic "blowout." (who cares?) The newer (outboard inspired) case is better in that regard and there is a greater range of propellers offered. But with OMC gone and now absorbed into BRP -- I'm not sure I buy the "better" parts availability position.
When I say "been there - done that," I refer to when I repowered my 4-cap, Buick V6. After considering many alternatives, including current offerings from Volvo and MerCruiser, I was (and remain) convinced there are advantages to sticking with the "classic" electric shift design, especially for our OMC built boats, in its improved 68-77 form.
1) It works pretty well when you know and understand it.
2) Electric-shift's service record is better than the mechanically shifted units (it's sort of like trading one set of issues for another).
3) And there's something to be said for PC "period correctness."
They evolved, they good better and their sales record proved it. Regrettably, it was a long downhill slide for OMC sterndrives, after they moved away from electrics.
Lastly, it would only make sense to me to repower with an OMC 400/800 series stringer, in my mind if you happened to stumble onto a low-hour donor package. By that I mean everything, engine (typically Ford, but often Chevy), SelecTrim, wiring, steering and remote controls, instruments, etc., etc. This way it makes replacing and acquiring parts so much easier if you don't have a hybrid made up of a mish-mash of different pieces. If you carefully review the pictures on the OMC web site you'll see that several owners have re-powered with this approach.
So I will agree that anything is possible, especially if resources are not an issue. Convert to outboard power? Convert to jet power? Drop in the latest and greatest electronic fuel injected Volvo or Merc? Sure, it's all good and fun to speculate on.
But at somepoint, why not just get into a different boat?
Lee
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Veazie
To: omc-boats@...
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [OMC-Boats] Welch plug -- OH DUH...Never mind
Hi Bill,
You can go with as late as a 1977 drive, but it will be 4 inches shorter. However, the original long-leg drives that our boats came with are really a little on the long side anyway, since the cavitation plate is below the keel of the boat. From what research I've done, you can use a short profile drive, made between '72 and '77 and it will mount right up no problem. If I've done my research correctly, the short profile newer drive's cavitation plate with be right AT the keel of the boat, so you should be fine.
It also opens the possibility of putting the later '82-86 Mechanical shift stringers on with minimal modification. You'd have to run a new set of controls with the shift cable to a shift converter box, but the shift cable will run right through the same hole the shift wires do, and the outdrive will seamlessly mount on since the upper gearcase is the same as a short profile electric stringer. I would do this down the road (provided I had a boat at the moment) after the electric stringer gives out, which it may never will. With the newer mechanical shift units, parts for the lower end are more plentiful and often will interchange with Evinrude/Johnson outboard models.
~Scott
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Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 13:13:35 -0700
From: bldfw@...
To: omc-boats@...
Subject: Re: [OMC-Boats] Welch plug -- OH DUH...Never mind
Lee,
I've taken a flashlight and checked out the entire lower casing but not finding an H or HT. Is there somewhere specific it might be?
Also, the prop that came with the outdrive was a 14" if that suggests anything.
Finally, I talked with the sterndrive.com folks yesterday and found they were not going to be much help in the big picture. They don't keep parts/seals on hand, rather they would be shopping around for individual parts just like I would be and it would not be practical to involve them. They did make a suggestion to me to simplify matters....."find a later model drive where parts are more plentiful". Hmmmm....why didn't I think of that?
I ordered a parts manual so I can at least give the parts search a try. While doing that I will also keep my eyes open for a later model outdrive. What's the latest year I can go on the Electric drives? 1977?
-Bill
Dallas, TX
1970 Evinrude Explorer - 155 Buick V6 - OMC sterndrive
http://www.photobucket.com/evinrude_explorer
--- On Thu, 5/28/09, Lee Shuster (lib1) <lib1@...> wrote:
From: Lee Shuster (lib1) <lib1@...>
Subject: Re: [OMC-Boats] Welch plug -- OH DUH...Never mind
To: "Evinrude & Johnson Boats of the 1960's and 70's" <omc-boats@...>
Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 10:08 AM
Bill,
You are making progress -- but you aren't quite home yet.
I've got another assignment for you, Bill: In the late 1965, early 1966 timeframe OMC changed the LOWER gear case pinion and forward/reverse gears, on the HU (E) and TU (E) units.
We tend to generalize after 1967 that OMC used common lower sets, changing only the upper gear sets for specific engine applications
(on the "HEAVY DUTY" or large gear case units, aka the Type 14 unit as it uses a 14-inch dia. prop.) But in the early days things were constantly changing/improving.
Check to see if letters "H" or "HT" are stamped on the lower gear case housing. Newer HT units are 15:23 gear sets and earlier H units use 19:29 gear sets.
You should have about a 1:52:1 OVERALL ratio. Again, I wouldn't be overly concerned, at least you've ID'ed the drive (via the welch plug) well enough to know what
upper-unit and pump-related parts you will need (assuming "someone" hasn't been inside the drive replacing parts.
(The small difference between these lower-end two gear ratios is not of enough significance that propellor swapping would be called for.)
Note the earlier 1964 HU 12M's used a 16-28 lower gear set, which resulted in a shorter (1:75:1) OVERALL ratio.
Thus, the taller (1:52:1) ratio would typically use about 2-inches less prop pitch on a given load.
(Here, "taller" means lower numerically, resulting in fewer engine RPM's for every turn of the prop.)
If this seems nit-picky if was consistent with OMC's engineering program to constantly improve the quality of their products.
The gear ratio changes increased overall efficiency, permitted use of a larger range of propellors, at a greater range of altitudes, improved gear life and reduced gear noise.
If this topic is of interest to the larger group, I will talk more about the major technical changes made around 1967-1/2 when the "16C" improved versions (5-bolt caps) were introduced.
(One of the major design changes was the elimination of the "plunger" type oil pump that was driven off the prop shaft in the bottom case.) The are pros and cons to this design change but I
will save that for another thread.
However, these design changes remained in production for over a decade
at a time when OMC electric-shift stringers dominated the sterndrive market.
Lee
On May 27, 2009, at 10:18 PM, BLDFW wrote:
It was staring me right in the face and over looked the whole time!!! It was a bit dirty but there it was.
HU 13E = 1965 150hp SUCH A DEAL!!
-Bill
--- On Wed, 5/27/09, BLDFW <bldfw@...> wrote:
From: BLDFW <bldfw@...>
Subject: Re: [OMC-Boats] Manual question
To: "Evinrude & Johnson Boats of the 1960's and 70's" <omc-boats@...>
Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 10:32 PM
If only it were that easy. I just check the top of the upper unit and am not seeing anything like what you are referring to. I even checked the intermediate housing to see if it was there. Any chance you have a pic with a big old pointy thing showing the spot?
Also, this afternoon, after cleaning all the gunk and grime off the intermediate housing, I'm seeing a lot of maroon base coloring under white paint. Earlier I mentioned seeing 'navy' blue peaking through the white paint on the upper gear casing but I'm also finding evidence of marroon. Was there a marroon colored outdrive or is that possibly just the base coat? I've not had a chance to go back and check the Ultimate galleries to see for myself so thought I'd toss that question out there.
-Bill
Dallas, TX
1970 Evinrude Explorer - 155 Buick V6 - OMC sterndrive
http://www.photobucket.com/evinrude_explorer
--- On Wed, 5/27/09, Lee Shuster <lks@...> wrote:
From: Lee Shuster <lks@...>
Subject: Re: [OMC-Boats] Manual question
To: "Evinrude & Johnson Boats of the 1960's and 70's" <omc-boats@...>
Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 9:35 PM
Bill,
I forgot about the "welch" plug ID located on the Port side on the top of the vertical drive assembly of the sterndrive leg. Early models had the sterndrive model number stamped on it. (HUE-12M for example would be a 1964 150 hp Buick V6).
Later model sterndrives actually had a 6-digit part number and horsepower rating visible. My 1971 has "210 HP" clearly stamped into the welch plug.
If you are standing behind the point and can see the black rubber bumper at the top of the drive unit, the welch plug should be visible, just slightly to the portside of the bumper.
The round welch plug is visible when the rudder is either straight ahead or in the forward starboard thrust position. If the rudder (prop) is turned to the Port side then the rotating upper cover will obscure the welch plug.
It would be interesting to see what other owners report finding on their sterndrive welch plugs. I'll bet you aren't the only owner with a potentially non-original unit.
Hope this helps to ID what you got.
Lee
On May 27, 2009, at 3:00 PM, BLDFW wrote:
Thanks Lee,
I do appreciate the assistance! I'm learning a butt load from this experience and I hope everyone else is benefitting too! I'll stick with it because it's the boat itself that strikes my fancy. The non-original engine/drivetrain is a tad of a let down but they appear to be at least in sync with each other (both 64-67's) so it's not the end of the world and I'm not one to through the towel in at the first whiff of trouble.
I went back to the recently remembered Ken Cook website where they have manuals listed in threes....Owners, Parts, and Service and I know the Parts manual is critical. I want to get as close to the right versions as possible so I've been out cleaning on stuff hoping against hope of finding a model number stamped somewhere. No chance of that I see. I'll go back through all the emails and coallate the suggestions on checking the ratios to see what it comes out as. Then I'll know what set to order.
My favorite new mantra: It's ONLY money!
Jeesh!! ;-)
-Bill
Dallas, TX
1970 Evinrude Explorer - 155 Buick V6 - OMC sterndrive
http://www.photobucket.com/evinrude_explorer
--- On Wed, 5/27/09, Lee Shuster <lee.k.shuster@...> wrote:
From: Lee Shuster <lee.k.shuster@...>
Subject: Re: [OMC-Boats] Manual question
To: "'Evinrude & Johnson Boats of the 1960's and 70's'" <omc-boats@...>
Date: Wednesday, May 27, 2009, 3:35 PM
No difference. In subsequent later years OMC combined the manuals. 120-155-210 or 4-6-8 essentially the same, except for gear ratios.
What this manual doesn't cover is illustrated parts, which you really need if you are going to attempt to reassemble and use this 4-cap unit with any chance at all of finding the correct parts. And even then you are facing a night-marish, up-hill, prolonged battle.
The reason most sane people (who know OMC electric shift drives) run from the 64-67 drives is simply OMC made so many minor but important, evolutionary service and reliability improvements, from 1968 to 1977 on the electric stringers. (Except smart people run even faster from the 62-68 DU-series (smaller) drive!). OMC's devotion to product improvement was fanatical, yet effective.
Nothing is impossible (given enough time & dollar resources) but I would highly encourage you to find the correct (for your boat/engine) sterndrive unit, that when properly rebuilt will provide a lifetime of reliable service. It may indeed exceed you budget, but if done properly it will exceed your expectations. It is indeed unfortunate that "Someone" along they way messed up your boat's "pedigree." But know you are armed with the knowledge to un do their mistake (or not.)
Been there.... Done that.
Lee
------------------------------------------------
From: omc-boats-bounces@... [mailto:omc-boats-bounces@...] On Behalf Of BLDFW
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 1:33 PM
To: omc-boats@...
Subject: [OMC-Boats] Manual question
Aside from perhaps a ratio difference, is there any other significant difference between a 120hp and a 155hp OMC Factory manual if they are the same year or in the 64-67 span?
-Bill
Dallas, TX
1970 Evinrude Explorer - 155 Buick V6 - OMC sterndrive
http://www.photobucket.com/evinrude_explorer
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