Re: [OMC-Boats] spark

So with a Pertronix system installed - assumably a beefier system than
plain old points - do you still need the ballast resistor? I would
like to ditch mine, especially since after playing around with it the
past couple days it's now cracked. NAPA supposedly has
replacements, but maybe i don't even need one with Pertronix?

On May 13, 2010, at 3:45 AM, Ric Curnow wrote:

> I don't want to offend anyone, but, the reason for the resistor is
> to increase the life of the points. At the opening and closing of
> the points, the electricity will "jump" across the smaller gap
> causing metal from the contacts to be transferred from one to the
> other. This happens even with the resistor. This is the reason the
> points "wear out". The condenser in the same ignition system acts as
> a shock absorber, also helping to increase point life.
> The main difference between coils is the output voltage.
> The system mentioned here has a Pertronics modification. This is
> an electronic substitute for the points and condenser. Wiring
> diagrams for pertronics installations are available on their website.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Brodsky" <brodskye@...
> >
> To: "jd" <jdood@...>
> Cc: <omc-boats@...>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 4:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [OMC-Boats] spark
>
>
>> The reason for the ballast resistor is to increase the life of the
>> coil. Running a coil at 12V continuously can cause it to burn out,
>> so it's desirable to run it at partial power. Thus 12V typically
>> goes from the ignition/key switch, through a fuse, through the
>> ballast resistor, through the coil, and to ground. However, when
>> the engine is being started ("cranked"), very strong spark helps
>> with getting the fuel to light off the first time, so the ballast
>> resistor is bypassed and the coil is run at 12V. So a wire goes
>> from the starter directly to the coil.
>>
>> If you're concerned that your ballast resistor is faulty, you can
>> bypass it by putting a jumper wire between the terminals. However,
>> a burned out (open) ballast resistor will typically lead to an
>> engine that'll start just fine (in the "crank" position), but stall
>> as soon as you stop cranking it (return the key to "run"). I'm not
>> good with coils, but I wouldn't think that the particular choice of
>> coil would matter a ton - they're fairly interchangable. The wrong
>> coil might overheat or fail quickly or cause the engine to run
>> roughly, but you should at least get some spark.
>>
>> Ethan
>>
>> On Tue, 11 May 2010, jd wrote:
>>
>>> ok perfect - now I atleast know what to specifically ask for at
>>> NAPA. I'll get that exact coil, print out your email, get out my
>>> wiring diagrams, and see what happens.
>>>
>>> Just to clarify the photo with what you said about the
>>> pertronix. As you can see from the photo - that purple wire
>>> going to the ballast resister is coming from the dash area from
>>> what i remember. it's the hot wire from the ignition. on the
>>> other side of the BR is the red wire that goes on to connects to
>>> the pos terminal of the coil. This matches what the manual
>>> diagram says. However, maybe I have the purple wire from the
>>> ignition going to the wrong end of the BR? But does it matter
>>> which end - doesn't it drop the voltage down no matter what end
>>> you're connected to, as long as it's the opposite end? Anyway,
>>> maybe that's wrong.
>>>
>>> But beyond that - you said ".if memory serves the pertronix kit
>>> is a 12VDC system the red wire from that kit should be on the
>>> 12VDC side of the ballast resistor (so the distributor wiring is
>>> going to be a little different from the diagram)" . I'm looking
>>> at the photo, and It looks like I have my red from the distrubutor
>>> going straight to the pos of the coil.......which is getting power
>>> from the 9.5v side of the BR, isn't it? So maybe I need to connect
>>> that red distributor wire straight to the terminal on the BR where
>>> the purple wire is instead? If I'm understanding this right that
>>> would be the 12v side? Maybe that's the whole prob - the
>>> distributor has been getting 9.5v juice instead of the 12v juice
>>> it needs?
>>>
>>>
>>> The part I don't get is this: So 12v comes from the ignition,
>>> goes through the BR which drops it down to 9.5v, then on to the
>>> coil which boosts it back up to 20000v ? Why the BR?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm with you on the wiring....which is why I spent most of last
>>> summer rewiring everything in my boat too. So i'd estimate my
>>> wiring in engine and general boat to be about 95% new. I'm
>>> pretty sure I replaced all wires going to the coil. Atleast back
>>> to just short of where they went into the plug. Plus I park it
>>> inside all winter. So I doubt i have any corrosion in the wiring
>>> going to the coil. Maybe inside the coil, but not outside. BTW -
>>> I have a multimeter but barely know how to use it. The
>>> instructions are a mile long, and there's about 15000 different
>>> settings on the front. But I'll see if I can get somehwere with
>>> it. I think mine is similar to this one in the photo - where
>>> should I have that dial set? Which of the two jacks at the bottom
>>> should I have the red test probe plugged into?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 11, 2010, at 11:54 AM, BC Howk wrote:
>>>
>>>> JD,
>>>>
>>>> First thing first IF you decide you are gonna use a CAR part, ask
>>>> for the part off of a 1969 Jeepster Commando with the V6...I used
>>>> to own one of these it is the SAME motor, and this is the one I
>>>> use to point the guy at NAPA to the part I want for my Sportsman.
>>>>
>>>> CAVEAT: Like you I am not a professional mechanic. Through plenty
>>>> of trial, error and research I have managed to get my Sportsman
>>>> in pretty sound mechanical shape and learned a few things on the
>>>> way.....I do not have all the answers. You however are not alone
>>>> out there, I offer whatever advice or help I can :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>> have never replaced the coil on mine so I have not been through
>>>> this personally, but as I see it, there are 2 ways to go
>>>> here...BTW- I highly recommend picking up a multimeter too,
>>>> doesn't have to be fancy but should be able to read ohms and DC/
>>>> AC voltage. It really does come in handy for this sort of thing...
>>>>
>>>> 1. Buy a coil for a 69 jeepster and put it on there....triple
>>>> check how you have the coil wired up by the wiring diagram...if
>>>> memory serves the pertronix kit is a 12VDC system the red wire
>>>> from that kit should be on the 12VDC side of the ballast resistor
>>>> (so the distributor wiring is going to be a little different from
>>>> the diagram)...if you picked up the multi-meter you should be
>>>> able to check the voltage on both sides of the ballast resistor
>>>> to verify it is working (they don't always LOOK bad even if they
>>>> are)
>>>>
>>>> 2. Buy a 12VDC generic coil of the same dimensions and hook it up
>>>> (I'm a little foggier about how EXACTLY to do this without really
>>>> staring at the wiring diagram) IF my memory serves, should hook
>>>> up just like the old one but connect to the 12VDC side of the
>>>> ballast resistor instead of the 9.5VDC side....PLEASE check the
>>>> diagram and validate for yourself...hopefully the new coil will
>>>> have a wiring diagram in it.....
>>>>
>>>> Hard to tell from the picture but everything LOOKs
>>>> connected....If it were me, and believe me I've been through this
>>>> on my own Sportsman...I would physically touch and trace every
>>>> wire connected to the coil and compare it to the wiring diagram,
>>>> looking for brittle insulation, broken or frayed wires, corroded
>>>> connections, etc. etc.....BTW- chasing thes things down, finding
>>>> and patching those cruddy old wires prompted me to TOTALY replace
>>>> the wiring in my engine bay, by rebuilding the engine harness
>>>> MYSELF, using the same techniques, old harness labeld one wire at
>>>> a time then removed, lay it out on the floor, replace everything
>>>> (had to reuse the rubber harness connector), one wire at a time
>>>> verified against the diagram. I was an electronics tech in the
>>>> Coast Guard for 10 years and am still a technical guy, so wiring
>>>> or troubleshooting an electrical issue doesn't scare me but going
>>>> through the process I learned tons about my boat and haven't had
>>>> to mess with wiring since; except for a stereo :-) Lot's of
>>>> people get freaked out about electrical...it's not that bad, just
>>>> relax, take your time and label EVERYTHING.
>>>>
>>>> Totally respect your desire to not only FIX your boat yourself
>>>> but to learn about it in the process. The offer stands if you
>>>> need a hand. Happy to help, share any knowledge I have stumbled
>>>> across on my own and get a chance to check out another OMC boat
>>>> in the area.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> B.C.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> May 11, 2010 09:57:32 AM, jdood@... wrote:
>>>>> yeah you might be on to something here. here's the situation with
>>>>> the coils. ran it last year with a Napa coil (can't remember exact
>>>>> # but i think 907). Thinking it might be bad, took that coil into
>>>>> Napa for replacement. They could find the coil i had in their
>>>>> system. So then we did the wild goose chase of me telling them to
>>>>> check a " '70 or '71 Buick Skylark, or maybe a Kaiser Jeep V6
>>>>> Odd
>>>>> Fire Buick 225 CID 155". (I still am not clear on what to ask
>>>>> for but I think that's close). Also said it was from an OMC boat,
>>>>> etc. He came back with an almost identical looking coil, maybe
>>>>> #912
>>>>> or something. Said it was the one referenced everywhere and also
>>>>> said it was the common one by several other boats (bayliner, etc).
>>>>>
>>>>> So slight chance I might have wrong coill. But I checked things,
>>>>> tried to start, etc with my PREVEIOUS coil in there and still got
>>>>> nothing. But as you say, maybe that one was wrong too, but got me
>>>>> by last summer until it developed just enough corrosion inside to
>>>>> die. Especially after sitting all winter (?)
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) I don't wanna screw with this, and rely on some Napa guy
>>>>> thumbing
>>>>> through books and ending up with something that "should be right".
>>>>>
>>>>> Can you tell me exactly where to go and what exact coil I should
>>>>> be
>>>>> getting (ie whatever you and everyone else have in your boat)?
>>>>> I'll
>>>>> just go buy one. No more trial and error.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) I have a functioning ballast resistor. I don't use any voltage
>>>>> meter, just my lighted screwdriver thing. The BR is getting power
>>>>> via a red wire to it. This is a photo i took before i went
>>>>> shopping
>>>>> for a new coil a few days ago (and so i would be able to get the
>>>>> wires
>>>>> back as they were). I hooked up the new coil this exact same way.
>>>>> See anything out of whack?:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 10, 2010, at 2:36 PM, BC Howk wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry JD, hit send instead of save on my last e-mail......like
>>>>>> I was
>>>>>> saying :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm certain it is something simple.....there is just no much to
>>>>>> these ignition systems and if you already put the pertronix kit
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> there you already addressed the most complicated piece (imho)....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just so I'm clear...is the NEW coil on there now? if my foggy
>>>>>> memory
>>>>>
>>>>>> serves, you said you had 12VDC on the coil +....look this up for
>>>>>> yourself (i.e. I may be mistaken) BUT I thought that the
>>>>>> origional
>>>>>> coil set up on these was 9.5 volts OR said another way your
>>>>>> coil +
>>>>>> should be connected to your ballast resistor which drops the
>>>>>> voltage
>>>>>> down from 12VDC to 9.5VDC...Soooo if you have a FACTORY COIL with
>>>>>> 12VDC on it (I think) that may be your problem?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ANOTHER possibility, if you have a NEW one there and it is a
>>>>>> 12VDC
>>>>>> coil (like some high performance ones you'd see on the shelf at
>>>>>> an
>>>>>
>>>>>> auto parts store) and you had IT connected to the 9.5 VDC side of
>>>>>> your ballast resistor then THAT could be a problem (9.5 VDC
>>>>>> when the
>>>>>> coil expects 12)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sooooo if you got a wire crossed and hooked up 12VDC side of the
>>>>>> ballast resistor to a 9.5VDC coil perhaps it could have worked
>>>>>> for a
>>>>>> little while then gone kaput OR PERHAPS the inverse is true and
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> sort of works having 9.5 VDC on a 12VDC coil and with just a
>>>>>> little
>>>>>> corrosion, took it out of tolerance and is now giving you no
>>>>>> spark.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are either of these scenarios a possibility? If you are running
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> the old coil and have changed nothing, perhaps your old coil just
>>>>>> gave up the ghost. Either way those links I sent about bench
>>>>>> testing
>>>>>> a coil (I hope) will come in handy. AND might be helpful to
>>>>>> take a
>>>>>> look at your ballast resistor to ensure that all the wires are in
>>>>>> the right place and the resistor itself is healthy.....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hope this helps,
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> B.C.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >On May 10, 2010, at 10:12 AM, BC Howk wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> JD,
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> If you have the little spark plug thingy that lights up when
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> plug fires..then you already know you do not have spark,
>>>>>> right?
>>>>> If
>>>>>> >> you are curious if you are using the light correctly, I might
>>>>>> >> suggest you try it on a known good plug wire, like your car/
>>>>>> truck
>>>>>> >> for example....
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >yeah - i just used the light thing last year and it worked
>>>>>> great....so
>>>>>> >99.9% sure that's working - and you're right, since it's
>>>>> not lighting
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >up on any of the plug wires Its looking like i have no spark.
>>>>>> I'm
>>>>>> >just trying to see where in the chain it's breaking down. So I'm
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >trying to see if anything is being sent to the distributor
>>>>>> from the
>>>>>> >coil which is why i'm trying the coil wire.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >btw -- a few others have asked and I keep forgetting to
>>>>>> mention - I
>>>>>> >already have the pertronix pointless stuff in my distributor,
>>>>>> so i
>>>>>> >don't think it's a missing rotor or anything.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> BTW- I use a timing light to check for spark..you clamp one
>>>>>> lead
>>>>> to
>>>>>> >> battery positive, the other to ground, and there is an
>>>>>> inductive
>>>>>> >> clamp that you clip OVER your number one spark plug wire, have
>>>>>> >> someone crank the engine over while you pull the trigger and
>>>>>> viola
>>>>>> >> if you see the strobe your in business.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >So in theory I could use clamp that inductive wire to the coil
>>>>>> >wire? i'm by myself - but i'm thinking maybe the cord will
>>>>> reach
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >and I can turn the key and pull the trigger at the same time.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> NO STROBE? Pop off the distibutor cap, check the brass
>>>>>> connections
>>>>>> >> on the cap for corrosion, take a bit of fine sandpaper to the
>>>>>> >> contacts on your points, maybe just replace the points and
>>>>>> condenser
>>>>>> >> (part at any auto place, ask them for points and condenser
>>>>>> from
>>>>> a
>>>>>> 69
>>>>>> >> jeepster with V6 OR get the pertronix kit PN#1165 jeep 225 odd
>>>>>> >> fire).....I have a sneaky suspicion that a little cleaning of
>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> contacts on your points and you will be right as rain
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >unfortunately no, first thing i checked......pertronix
>>>>>> contacts are
>>>>>> >looking clean and shiny.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> I have had the same experience you are describing basically
>>>>>> every
>>>>>> >> year until I put on the pertronix kit. my timing light is THE
>>>>>
>>>>>> TOOL I
>>>>>> >> used to diagnose this easily, besides you will need one to
>>>>>> properly
>>>>>> >> tune you boat (on mine TIMING makes a HUGE difference in
>>>>>> performance)
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> We're in the same town...if you'd like a hand let me know.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >yeah thanks BC - i'm thinking i might take you up on that offer
>>>>> here
>>>>>> >soon if I can't get it. I'm going to try a little bit more
>>>>> on my
>>>>>> >own. This boat is about 95% "fixed" at this point. All last
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >summer I spent chasing and fixing the overheat problem. Then
>>>>>> it was
>>>>>> >the little piece of metal that fell down in the cylinder so i
>>>>>> had to
>>>>>> >disassemble the head, etc to fix that. Then it was a the
>>>>>> throttle
>>>>>> >switch that broke apart on me and time spent fixing that.
>>>>>> There's
>>>>>> >not much left to fix on this boat! As you might recall, i
>>>>>> >actually used it a few times last summer....and at the very
>>>>>> end of
>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >season I started having this problem where it would just drop
>>>>>> down
>>>>> to
>>>>>> >zero RPM's right while accelerating to plane. So I think you and
>>>>>> >another person suggested that might be the coil. So I bought a
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> >coil this weekend, and am just trying to get the dang thing
>>>>>> started
>>>>>> >for the first time this season so I can see if the new coil
>>>>>> solved
>>>>>> >the RPM problem. It was starting fine last summer. All I did was
>>>>>> >winterize it since. Now just trying to start it up this summer
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> >getting no spark for some reason. So can't even look into prob
>>>>> #1
>>>>>> >untl I get past this new prob #2. But I'm hoping this spark
>>>>>> issue
>>>>>> >is something really simple. So I wanna see if i can get it on my
>>>>>> >own, then test out the new coil and see if that fixed the
>>>>>> >deceleration problem. And if all goes right I might not even
>>>>>> need
>>>>>> >you. All I know is I DO NOT want to have this thing sit for
>>>>>> >another summer while I "self teach" my way through this last
>>>>> little
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >bit of problems.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> cheers,
>>>>>> >> B.C.
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >>
>>>>>> >> May 10, 2010 09:04:17 AM, jdood@... wrote:
>>>>>> >> >ok - i can do that - ill figure out some way to sort of tie
>>>>> or
>>>>>> clamp
>>>>>> >> >it down.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > the metal of the connector is way up inside the rubber boot
>>>>> on
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> >> >end of the wire though and i don't think it slides back
>>>>> - so how
>>>>>> >> >close do i need to get to metal to make it arc? 1"? 1/2"
>>>>>> >?
>>>>>> >> >If I
>>>>>> >> >can't get a spark it might in fact be because the boot
>>>>> is getting
>>>>>> >in
>>>>>> >> >the way - adding another layer of confusion to my process
>>>>> of
>>>>>> >> >elimination here.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> > btw i meant clamping the wire in place somewhere with the
>>>>>> >> >visegrips, not holding it :)
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >I've seen mechanics to this spark wire arc thing on occasion
>>>>> over
>>>>>> >the
>>>>>> >> >years, but i've never done it myself. I always sort of
>>>>> knew there
>>>>>> >> >was something semi-dangerous about it, but never knew why
>>>>> -
>>>>>> >> >especially when all the other 12v wiring stuff in a car or
>>>>> boat is
>>>>>> >> >pretty harmless if you touch it. Now thanks to Lee I know
>>>>> what a
>>>>>> >> >coil does - basically boosts up the voltage - now makes sense
>>>>> why
>>>>>> >> >people use more caution with the plug wires. I guess the fat
>>>>>> >> >wire running from the battery to the starter is probably one
>>>>> you
>>>>>> >> don't
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >want to touch also. Although there's no coil in that chain
>>>>> to
>>>>>> boost
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >the voltage up. This is where my stupidity kicks in.
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >On May 10, 2010, at 3:42 AM, Justin DeSantis wrote:
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >>> probably a stupid question but how do i do it without
>>>>> touching
>>>>>> >the
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >>> wire?
>>>>>> >> >>> vise grips?
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> NO! Vise grips are made of bare metal. It would be like
>>>>> touching
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> the
>>>>>> >> >> wire. It won't kill you (probably) but you'll
>>>>> know you
>>>>>> >did
>>>>>> >> something
>>>>>> >> >> wrong.
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> just lay it on the engine?
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> If you can, yes.
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >>> plus, we're talking about short
>>>>>> >> >>> little 8-10" long wire that comes off the top
>>>>> of the
>>>>>> >coil
>>>>>> >> >>> here........its
>>>>>> >> >>> not gonna reach too far and probalby won't just
>>>>> rest on
>>>>>> >the engine
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >>> either .
>>>>>> >> >>
>>>>>> >> >> Be creative. Lay something on it to hold it in place.
>>>>> Use a zip
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> tie.
>>>>>> >> >> Some string. Like Roosevelt said "Do what you can,
>>>>> with what
>>>>>> >you
>>>>>> >> have,
>>>>>> >> >> where you are."
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >> >_______________________________________________
>>>>>> >> >OMC-Boats mailing list
>>>>>> >> >OMC-Boats@...
>>>>>> >> >http://lists.ultimate.com/mailman/listinfo/omc-boats
>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> <a href="http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~brodskye/"> Ethan Brodsky </
>> a>
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Received on Thursday, 13 May 2010